Next Chapter for Teachers Podcast

47. Understanding and Responding to Neurodivergent Student Needs - An Interview with Dr. Jessica Werner

• Erin Sponaugle • Season 5 • Episode 47

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Our classrooms are diverse learning environments with many types of learners. How do we meet the needs of our neurodivergent students in an ever-changing classroom landscape? In this episode, I interview Dr. Jessica Werner, founder of Northshore Learning, about understanding neurodivergent student needs, working with parents to address classroom behaviors, and creating classroom systems that help all students thrive. To learn more about Jessica's resources and programs for schools, visit Northshore Learning. 

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SPEAKER_01:

Being a teacher isn't what it used to be. The good news is you don't have to figure it out on your own. If you're looking for truth, inspiration, and tips for success, in the classroom and beyond, you're in the right place. It's time to turn the page to the future of the profession. This is the next chapter for teachers podcast. Hello everyone. This is Erin Spinagle for the next chapter for Teachers Podcast. This is episode 47. And this week we're going to be talking about how we can meet the needs of neurodivergence students. So our classrooms are made up of lots of different needs and personalities and exceptional education students. Today we're going to talk with Dr. Jessica Warner. She is the founder of North Shore Learning and she is a specialist in student behavior. We're going to be talking about how we can best meet the needs of neurodivergent students, what exactly it means to be neurodivergent, and what we can do to work with parents and improve our classroom environments so that we can meet the needs of all learners. So let's listen to the interview. We're here today with Jessica Warner. Hi Jessica, how are you? Hi, I'm great.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm so happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01:

We are here to talk about understanding and responding to neurodivergent student behaviors in today's classrooms. Our classrooms have students from all different experiences and all different needs. And as teachers, we want to meet those needs, but sometimes it can feel very overwhelming when you have a classroom full of varying needs throughout the day. So we're thankful to have you here to talk about this. Jessica, first, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background in education?

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. So I'm Jessica. I live in the Minneapolis area, and I've been in education my whole career as a teacher, as a professor of education, working with student teachers, teaching courses. And now I am the founder of North Shore Learning, which is an education consultancy company. And we work with schools worldwide. And our main goal is just to help teachers everywhere feel like they have what they need to meet the needs of the students in front of them. And as you said, the needs are getting more challenging. And this is not, we're not going to go in reverse. It's not going to start going back to anything that we've seen before. Unfortunately, this is translating into a lot of burnout and teachers leaving the profession. And so right now I have the statistic 44 million in my head because UNESCO last year, 2024, said that by 2030 the world is going to be short 44 million teachers, which is like an unfathomable amount. And we're doing our best to try to help that so that people feel that they have the skills that it takes to work with these kids. They have the support, they have encouragement, they have coaching, so that more people, teachers and admin alike, are able or feel like they're able to stay in the field.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. That is a staggering statistic. To be short, that many teachers, we think about it on a national level, but worldwide level, that makes it even more uh shocking to hear that. So we're here today to talk about uh responding to neurodivergent students. Let's first talk about the word neurodivergent. I like to address often the tick-tokification, if you will, of certain uh words and things that we hear online. And this comes up quite a bit, people identifying as this or doing reels or whatnot on being neurodivergent or neurodivergent students. What is meant by that word and what behaviors and diagnoses come under that umbrella?

SPEAKER_00:

I know we hear this word a lot lately, and a lot of people are self-identifying with it. I actually went back to source. I went to the male clinic and I said, what is the actual definition of neurodivergence? And it basically just means it's this like category of brains that function, learn, and process information differently from whatever is considered typical or neurotypical. So it's a broad definition. The types of um diagnoses that people have that sometimes will fall or they'll self-um identify as falling under that umbrella are on the spectrum, the autism spectrum, ADHD. Um, there's some behavior disorders now that are falling under that umbrella as well. But and then there are things that we're seeing in schools that don't even have an official diagnosis. There's not a box to put them in. And so they're kind of getting lumped as neurodivergent as well. But I kind of challenge the definition because I challenge what we're saying is typical. I think my experience in schools is just in my experience with humans is that there's just so many different brains and different ways of handling everything that the last couple of years I've started to question like what even is neurotypical anymore. But when you hear people talk about neurodivergence, most often they're probably referring to being on the spectrum or perhaps AHD.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. So what happens is regardless if a student is neurodivergent or not, we end up with disruptive behaviors in the classroom. It often takes a lot of class time or takes teachers away from doing the work of teaching. When we talk about disruptive behaviors, what do you think teachers often misunderstand about what's really going beneath the surface of that behavior?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, when we look harder at that 44 million number of shortage, the number one thing teachers say is driving them out of the professions, managing challenging student behavior. This is a huge pain point for teachers, and it's gotten considerably more difficult, I think, since the pandemic. So yeah, it's really important to be talking about behaviors. When I think of what's misunderstood, you know, I was trained as a teacher a long time ago, over 20 years ago. And we, it wasn't explicitly said like behavior is willful, willful acts of defiance, but it was kind of implied. And everything we learned around working with behaviors was kind of under the assumption that they were doing something on purpose. And if it wasn't the case, that was never addressed. So we were definitely not talking about behavior from brain perspective. It was more students are making a choice to do something. What we know now is that uh the brain is responsible for a lot of the behaviors we see because the brain during the day, during the school day, will get triggered into fight, flight, or freeze. And from there, especially in the fight mechanism, is where behaviors present. There are other students who are feeling the same way, perhaps, but they're presenting differently. So we're also seeing big behaviors, but we're also seeing and hearing about a lot of withdrawal, students who are withdrawn, students who are ambivalent, students who simply aren't coming to class. And so I think the misunderstanding is that, and this is kind of the work we're doing with teachers now, thinking about behavior no longer as willful disobedience, but as a form of communication. What is happening right now that the brain is communicating? What is the student communicating by their actions?

SPEAKER_01:

All right. So, how does understanding the neuroscience behind behavior change how teachers respond to neurodivergent students and also just to behavior disturbances in general?

SPEAKER_00:

I really find that the more I learn about the brain and it helps explain behavior, the more empathy I have, first of all, for the person who's presenting. Because when you stop looking at it as they're trying to make my day hard or they're trying to set me off. They don't like me. And you start to understand it that it's involuntary and the brain is behind it, it gives you a lot more empathy for the situation, for the child, for the adult, quite honestly. We have a lot of adults presenting similarly. And so I like that just starting with a perspective of empathy when you're engaging in any kind of um situation with a student, it's a different lens than why are you out to get me? Why are you out to ruin my day? And it makes you more likely to be solution focused. So I'm finding, you know, we and I want to say too to all the teachers listening who are thinking, well, I don't know anything about neuroscience. You're right. Most of us have absolutely no training in neuroscience. It's starting, I think, to creep into teacher training now just because there have been so many gains in neuroscience in the last 30 years. I think it's starting to pop more into teacher education, but it's not mainstream. I the reason I know what I know is because I work with so many student behaviors and I've just tried to dive into the why behind the behaviors because it's really hard to address behavior if you don't know what's motivating it. So just to know that teacher, there's not something you missed. This just was never taught to us.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

We have a neuroscientist on our team who I'm so grateful for because she can fact check us, she can share the latest research with us, which again is really fascinating because it's coming in in real time. But yeah, this is not something most educators have been exposed to.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. So a lot of that goes down knowing what is the background and what is the sensory trigger for why that child might be uh behaving the way they are. What are some of the more common environmental or sensory triggers that lead to behaviors that teachers may see as or do see as defiance or disruption?

SPEAKER_00:

I say I'm learning this even with my own children. When you start by thinking, are their basic human needs met right now? Are they hungry? Okay, hungry is a huge trigger. Hangry is that's a real thing. Yeah. It's a huge trigger. Did they sleep last night? Are they well rested? Fatigue is a trigger. Boredom, we've actually learned in the past 10 years, is a trigger. It triggers you into fight, flight, or freeze the same way other things do, like threats and trauma. And so boredom is a big one in the classrooms. Students who are bored aren't necessarily sitting there waiting compliantly anymore, like some of us did during my generation. They're acting out, they're moving around, they're withdrawing, they're doing different things. So those are kind of the first couple questions to ask yourself. How is this child physiologically? Are their needs met? Are they hungry? And just asking the student will can provide you with some of these answers. Did they sleep last night? Is when I'm teaching, are they engaged? And if not, are they bored? And is their brain looking for a way to entertain itself? And those are some of the three just first line questions you want to ask yourself when you see behavior present.

SPEAKER_01:

That's true. So, but not only do we have the environmental factors, we do have these students that, aside from the environmental factors, will disrupt the class, make it difficult to do the work of teaching during the day. And often teachers will be told they need to manage the behavior, or instead of sending the student to the office, they need to find a way to handle it in the classroom. And that can feel to a teacher kind of oversimplified when they are in a point with or in a classroom with 20 plus other students and they're trying to teach, and there's a student who is keeping them from being able to do what they need to do or meet that student's needs or meet their the needs of the other students in the room. So, in your view, what does a more compassionate and effective approach to managing behavior look like?

SPEAKER_00:

First of all, you're right, that happens a lot. And I also work with a lot of administrators. So I hear in the administrator end, why are we getting students referred to our office? Why can't the teachers deal with these behaviors? And then I'm at the teacher end hearing, we don't have a school-wide system for doing this. I don't even know within the system how to be addressing behaviors when behaviors are severe enough that I shouldn't be expected to intervene on my own. And when behaviors become dangerous and that's not safe. So I think every school needs some kind of system. Needs some kind of understanding. These are the behaviors we might see. These are our first lines of interventions and responses. And then starting, if you're talking about MTSS, okay, now what is tier two? When do we know a student has moved into a tier two behavior? And how do I get support? And just every single school is different in how they handle behaviors, what they see is extreme or not. But unless there's some kind of plan, then the poor teachers are the ones every single day, all day long, trying to figure out at what point can I ask for help? At what point is this not too much? So I absolutely empathize because I see it all the time. It's really stressful. This is a good conversation to start having with your team leads, senior leadership team, administrators. If you are listening right now and thinking our school does not have a system, it's something that needs to be implemented. That's kind of like a general foundation, and then you go from there.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And not only a part of that is part of dealing with behavior as an administrator and teacher issue, but it's also a part of bringing in parents and having the parent be a part of helping that student be successful as well. So you're a parent, as you just mentioned a few minutes ago. How has your experience as a parent shaped the way that you think about students, leaders, and the systems that are wrapped around them regarding behavior?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my gosh. In a million ways, it has shaped who I am. Again, I fell into that category of behavior is willful, behavior is the student is trying to rattle me. And then you realize that some there are some things that you get presented with that are not the students or our children aren't in a position to calm themselves. Really, it comes down to like sometimes the brain just needs help calming down, knowing it's not in a dangerous, life-threatening situation. Their amygdala doesn't know the difference for like your brain doesn't know the difference between there is a tiger coming at you and the homework assignment is getting handed back out. Your brain is responding the same. And so living as a mother and working, you know, dozens of schools with hundreds of teachers, probably thousands at this point, I've just I started seeing things differently. And when I see behavior present in a classroom, my first thoughts are I'm trying to unpack what I'm seeing. Why do I think I'm seeing what I'm seeing? How can I help the teacher with this? Because I think of my own kids. I think if they were this child, if they were in this classroom, and I have some ideas because they're my children about why this would be happening. So it helps me go into a place of curiosity and empathy that I didn't have before I had children.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And it's a learning experience for parents too, for learning how to best meet their child's needs as they grow. Um, so sometimes we're all just learning together how to best meet kids' needs as we um interact with them. Many teachers feel unprepared to support students that they have that might have ADHD, um, ODD. And if you're a listener and you're not sure what that means, attention deficit disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, there are many other neurodivergent profiles. Right. What are some mindset shifts to help teachers and honestly what's to help parents that may be trying to help their child move from not feeling confident to feeling that they're able to best address this need in the classroom or at home and for not just this student, but for future students that have these issues?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, again, I come back to the word curiosity. I like if your mindset is shifting from frustration or anger to curiosity, that's a really good place to start. Again, why am I seeing what I'm seeing? What is it like to be this child? What are resources out there that are available? That's the beauty of the internet. We have so many resources available to us. Actually, my group is launching tomorrow a one-hour uh supporting students with ADHD webinar, which is also geared toward parents. And, you know, resources like that are, but again, it takes the curiosity to say, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna dig deeper. I'm gonna find out more things. I'm not gonna be afraid to ask for help. It also helps greatly when schools provide some of the support, when they provide, we're having starting to have more schools ask specifically for parent education. And I think this is the smartest way to approach things because, like you said, like parents, we're learning this, we're all learning at the same time. And if I'm a career teacher and I struggle, and I've been around kids for decades. Yes, it's extremely challenging to raise kids when you don't have that previous exposure. So I love when I see schools offering opportunities for parent learning as well. And again, just being curious to say, how can I do this? How can I, who are my resources? Who can I turn? Who can I ask? Rather than falling back on this is the way it should be, or this is the way we've always done it, because times are changing.

SPEAKER_01:

That's right. So let's just say that we have a teacher and behavior is escalating, and sometimes the ball gets rolling, things go from zero to 60 very quickly in the classroom. What are some practical strategies that teachers can use in the moment that happened to regulate the situation, keep it from getting out of control, and getting back to the point where the student can continue. In the classroom and learning can continue in the classroom as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, this question I see with a few answers. First of all, if you're witnessing behavior that escalated quickly and is dangerous, that is not safe. That is not a safe environment. Even to the best of your ability, you probably will not be able to help that child regulate. That is absolutely a time to either bring your other students out of the class or to call for help for somebody to come and sit with the child who's dysregulated. So there's kind of a spectrum even on behavior, right? So when you're looking at dangerous, scary behavior, your tools aren't going to work because their brains are not ready for it. If you're looking at more mild or moderate behaviors, or especially escalating, escalating is the best time to intervene. The number one thing the teacher should know is that you are the best chance that child has of regulating because our brains will match the brains of those around us. And if we approach and engage in our in a way where we are calm and quiet, even, and it's kind of the opposite of how you feel in the moment. It takes a lot of mental overriding to do this. It's believe me, I've been working on it for years. But that is absolutely the best chance you have of helping bring down the stress, the anxiety, the cortisol of the student and being able to take the next step. And so when you're in that space and you know you need to access it, first of all, just kind of mentally acknowledging, all right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to make sure when as this escalates that I'm ready to be the calm. Um that's the best place to start. I highly recommend schools train teachers on co-regulation. This is one thing we've been getting asked for a lot because the co-regulation, like I said, it does not come naturally. Again, somebody in your room is escalating your brain's response, is to match them. So it takes a lot of willpower and a lot of intention. But there are ways you can kind of prepare yourself and train yourself to do that. So it's a great thing to offer for your teachers are co-regulation professional learning opportunities.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And you mentioned there, and this is work for us because our first card is to meet them on their energy level there. So the emotional labor that goes into teaching, it's intense and it becomes even more intensified when you are dealing with a behavior issue with a student, especially one that is intense. What would you say to teachers who feel exhausted, drained, just honestly? We're at the end of the first semester here when we're recording this. Uh, but and just sometimes just downright defeated at this point by the repeated behavior challenges in the classroom.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, first of all, I would say we're absolutely not alone. Like I said, it is the number one reason why people are leaving. And sometimes that's even helpful in knowing it's not just me. It is everywhere we work. We are hearing of these challenges from teachers who are veteran, who have been there for 50 years, teachers who are brand new. It's hard. So give yourself that grace just to know that it's really hard work. Absolutely. The emotional labor, I think, is the hardest part. I mean, teaching is a very physically demanding job. You're up and you're moving all day long. But I find the emotional labor to be even more difficult because you're depleted. You're depleted. And like you said, you might even start to question yourself and the work. When you start to feel that way, before it gets too overwhelming, this time of year, we're close to Christmas break. A lot of people are very close to being at the top where it tips into overwhelm. I just highly recommend you reach out, you ask for some sort of support, if not from an administrator or a leader, from a colleague, from a mentor. It is okay to admit we need support. Schools are not great at providing this as just part of the setup because salaries go to teachers and they go to paras and they go to all those positions that you know we absolutely 100% need. But that support for teacher role is becoming something so necessary. We provide that as one of our services. Some schools try to provide that internally with coaches, well-being, but it's something you can ask for and you can advocate for. And roles like that and support like that is the difference between burnout and feeling like you can go back another day.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, absolutely. It's good to mention. So let's take us in a little bit different direction for a moment. We talk about neurodivergent students. However, many teachers are also neurodivergent. They're neurodivergent themselves. Sometimes they have a diagnosis, sometimes not. Uh, but how does that change the conversation around behavior and classroom culture when you personally are dealing with some of the same issues that your students may have? That's, I mean, it's it's a thing. It's not, you know, we are people too. We are not immune from this. And it's becoming, you know, as you know, it's being more common to have a diagnosis, even, or even to recognize those traits in yourself.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and I would say probably most adults who there might be something are undiagnosed and probably will go undiagnosed. It's just not as common in the older generations. And it, yeah, unlike when you were, you know, 10 and your parents would say, let's go get this figured out when you're an adult, it might not be something you think to do. But first of all, just know neurodivergence can make your capacity, your cognitive load capacity, it can change it. So if you are extremely exhausted, you know, if focus is something challenging during the school day, you are focused all day. You're focused on your students. Give yourself grace when you come home and you're exhausted. I think everybody needs to recharge really differently, but being mindful of what you need and giving yourself those opportunities are really critical.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. It's good to give ourselves grace, the same grace that we want to extend to our students. So now let's go back to talking about the kids again. What are some mistakes that well-intentioned adults, they're not out to hurt anyone or to, you know, they mean well. Uh, what are some mistakes that they may make when responding to behaviors from neurodivergent students? And how can we pivot towards something that's more supportive?

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, I am going to lose some friends with this answer, but I am not a fan of rewards and punishment. Consequences, yes. Consequences and praise, that is logical, yes. But extra rewards, trinkets, I don't like trinkets, I really don't like candy or food. And on the other side, I can see consequences being unmotivating for a lot of students. So what we think will work, and honestly, what we've been taught will work, because I was taught this is what will work, is enticing. So I'm gonna entice the students with the reward, or I'm gonna scare them off with the punishment. But the way we train on classroom management, it doesn't, it doesn't fall back on either of those things. It falls into really proactive category. How do we set the stage that we don't even see those behaviors? And it sounds like a fairy tale, but we've seen it happen time and time again. There are ways to set up your classroom. It takes training, right? It's not something you're learning necessarily in teacher ed. It's not something you've necessarily learned on your own, but setting your classroom up in a way where the students don't have punishment. They don't have rewards that aren't logical and proportional. But I see that all the time. Teachers will assume, and I'll assume as a parent, sometimes, okay, they're gonna be motivated by this reward or they're gonna, they're gonna not want to do it because of the possible punishment. And I'm really noticing in children today that those are just not powerful motivators like they used to be. It's it's not it's not the same. They're not afraid of the punishment, you know. So we have to look at different ways to engage, be a class community. Um, we really need to focus on the proactive pieces.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Sometimes another thing is not what's going to make them oh yeah, yeah. Do it better this time or do it correctly this time. As a classroom teacher, I can absolutely agree that sometimes a reward is not the ticket to getting what you want. So to go along with that, schools often rely on plans like PEBIS um two or tiered inventions to as part of their uh behavior uh plan or their behavior uh motivation uh in their school. What is, in your opinion, how do these systems help or can they help? And where are they falling short, in particular for neurodivergent students?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, as I said earlier, having a plan is good. All schools need some kind of foundational plan, if it's PBIS, if it's responsive classroom, if it's logic, love and logic. There's so many.

SPEAKER_01:

There are. There really are.

SPEAKER_00:

There are so many different ones. Our favorite is called Time to Teach, and we train on Time to Teach because, like I said, it's almost entirely proactive way of engaging. But I work in schools and in classrooms where they use any classroom management system you can possibly imagine. So I'm really familiar with all of them. So, first of all, if the school has something, kudos, because I also work in a lot of schools where there's no plan and classroom management looks different class to class. That's not ideal for anyone, especially the kids. Their brains like structure, they like to know what is expected. And that means not only in my class, but when I go from third grade to fourth grade or when I'm moving down the hallway. So, in tiered interventions, again, it's great to have a plan. I think it's smart to consider tiered interventions the way we consider them for academics as well. So you know what tier one, tier two, and tier three look like, and you know the plan. So I'm a huge, huge fan of having a plan. Making sure whatever your plan is still fits the needs of your school is probably where a lot of our school partners fall right now. Kind of evaluating is whatever we have doing what we need it to do. Um, and if not, how do we, what do we need, where do we need change to be made and not being afraid to look at it really objectively and say, this might not be meeting our needs. We might be needing something different. Again, the way we train, uh uh actually a half day of our training involves regulation and co-regulation in the brain. It's just embedded in part of our training. But I think trainings that do offer some sort of neuroscience perspective, understanding, helping teachers understand the way the brain is working, what it responds. Teachers love this again because it explains what's in front of them instead of instead of thinking, oh, they're again, they're trying to ruin my day. And I say this, I say I laugh, but I mean, I used to think this. I used to have this idea that certain students were out to get me. Um, and now I just see that's not true. That's not, no student shows up to school thinking, I'm here to ruin my teacher's day. So again, just maybe it's time to reevaluate your plan. Maybe it's time to plug in some new interventions or pieces. It's a good time to start evaluating that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. So if teachers could walk away with just one thing that would change the way they see and respond to challenging behaviors, what would it be? Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I would ask yourself this question in the moment, and again, I know it's really hard. I know it's really hard. What is this behavior communicating to me? What is this behavior trying to tell me right now? And again, at the beginning, we said, am I hungry? Am I tired? Am I bored? Did I just have a terrible recess where I felt like I was bullied? Is my parent out of town and I haven't seen them for two weeks? Is somebody deployed? All these things. What might be behind this behavior I'm seeing right now? What is the communication? And starting with that question of curiosity and empathy, I would say that's the perfect place to start.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. Jessica, you've provided a lot of valuable information uh in this interview. What are some places that our listeners can go to find you online or to follow you on social media?

SPEAKER_00:

I would love to hear from you. Please feel free to check us out at our website, North ShoreLearning.org. And if you sign up for a newsletter list, you will get some freebies. One of them we're giving out is around actually working strategies for supporting students with ADHD. Also on our website, like I said, we're launching this course tomorrow, um, coincidentally, and it's a one-hour course for teachers on supporting students with ADHD. But the accommodations that we share truly are good for all students, all students who fall under the umbrella of neurodivergence, but really just the general classroom. So I love hearing if you enjoyed the episode. Feel free to reach out through our website. Uh and I'll look forward to hearing from you.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. Jessica Warner, everyone. All right, everyone. I hope you learned a lot from that interview about how we can best meet the needs of our neurodivergent students. Jessica is a wealth of knowledge and has a lot of resources that she has created as she has worked with lots of school systems across the country and even in different countries around the world. If you would like to learn more about what she can offer your school district or your school, you can visit her website, North ShoreLearning.org. I'll talk to you next time. That's all for this episode of the next chapter for Teachers podcast. If you like what you've heard, be sure to rate, subscribe, and leave a review. Join us next time to turn the page to the future of the profession. Until then, remember to be different, but more importantly, be the difference. And I'll see you in the next chapter.