Next Chapter for Teachers Podcast

43. Teaching Grammar in the Age of AI: An Interview with Patty McGee

• Erin Sponaugle • Season 5 • Episode 43

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It's no secret that artificial intelligence (AI) has changed how we can access information and perform tasks. While you may find the benefits and risks of using AI debatable, its ability to make the completion of work more efficient, for better or worse, is hard to deny. But what if you are a teacher who wants your students to learn how to write, and they use AI tools to complete their assignments instead of applying what you teach? Along with how social media has impacted communication, AI may feel like an impossible struggle when teaching your students to write and apply grammar skills. In this interview with national literacy consultant and author Patty McGee, we discuss how to teach students grammar in the availability of AI and strategies to make writing instruction relevant in the digital age.  You can learn more about how to integrate grammar instruction in the content area and more of Patty's resources at www.pattymcgee.org

Get your copy of Not Your Granny's Grammar: An Innovative Approach to Meaningful and Engaging Grammar Instruction here!

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SPEAKER_01:

Being a teacher isn't what it used to be. The good news is you don't have to figure it out on your own. If you're looking for truth, inspiration, and tips for success, in the classroom and beyond, you're in the right place. It's time to turn the page to the future of the profession. This is the next chapter for teachers podcast. Hello everyone, I'm Erin Spinagle, and you're listening to the next chapter for Teachers Podcast. This is episode 43. And for today's episode, I have something a little bit different for you. We're going to talk about teaching writing and most more specifically teaching grammar in the age of social media and AI. Now, I don't know one teacher or person, for that matter, who hasn't experienced how artificial intelligence is impacting life and how we are productive. I'm not going to argue that there are some great things about AI and how it can help us be more efficient and get things accomplished. But when it comes to teaching, or if you are a teacher, you may have a very different view on how AI is impacting how you teach and how your students demonstrate that they are learning or that they're able to apply what you teach. So today I have Patty McGee. She is a national literacy consultant and the author of Not Your Granny's Grammar. And she is going to share with us her views and some ideas for how to teach grammar in the age of AI and social media where students are able to have resources readily available to them that can do the hard work of writing well for them, or Kenneth So let's listen to the interview and see what we can learn. All right, everyone. Today we are here with Patty McGee. She is a national literacy consultant. Patty, thank you for speaking to me on the next chapter for Teachers Podcast.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. So, Patty, tell us a little bit about yourself before we get started and what you do, uh the services you provide, and things that you have contributed to literacy and grammar education.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. So this is my 31st year in education, and I've had a very interesting road from classroom teacher to instructional coach and school librarian and staff developer. And now I call myself a traveling teacher. And I heard overheard a second grader describe my job to her grandfather. She said, Grandpa, that lady's not a stranger. She's a traveling teacher, which means she goes into schools to help make the teachers' jobs just a little bit easier. And sometimes she teaches us. And so that's basically in a nutshell. And through that, I've learned so much from so many educators all over the country. And it's compelled me to write a couple of books, including my latest one on grammar, and provide lots of resources both for my website and for schools.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. So we're here today to talk about not just grammar grammar instruction, but how we're making it relevant for students in this ultra-digital age of artificial intelligence, social media. School is not, or education has been impacted by these more so than we ever could have imagined 10, 20 years ago. So you are in the classrooms around the country, and you're seeing the changes that are happening. So what are the shifts that you personally notice in students' writing habits, habits since AI tools have come onto the scene?

SPEAKER_00:

I've seen what one would assume is that to cut corners, to uh really get just an assignment done to complete something, AI is used. Um and I think there's workarounds for us as educators, uh, but so many, so many kids understandably think of school as like, well, I need to comply and complete. And this takes this much time, and that tool will help take a lot less time. So I've definitely seen an impact um on just the actual act of writing. But at the same time, I want to say I've seen a lot of impact on writing instruction because of prioritizing other areas of literacy and cutting out writing altogether. So that's a double whammy.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my, I can't imagine. I taught fifth grade for 15 years before I made the change to art, and I can't imagine not teaching writing because that to me is our basis for communication and for learning so much about um the things that are in the content areas and how to communicate what you've learned. Uh so I can't imagine not teaching the art of writing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh but along with what you're saying there about AI and using it as a workaround or an end to a means, um, teachers are saying that they they fear this AI uh creature. I don't want to call it a monster, but this creature that is um impacting the cla impacting classrooms and how students complete their work or show that they are writing even if it's not them. Uh so if what they're saying is that if AI is able to write anything, why would students bother, that's kind of what you're saying here, bother learning to write. So, how do you respond to that concern? Why should we bother teaching writing instruction if there's a way to get around having to do it authentically?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, if we think of writing as only the product, and that's it, then I guess there isn't a reason to teach writing for only looking at product. But if we really look at what happens when kids learn to express themselves on the page in the process of writing, not just the write quick and then we assess it, but actually use a writing process which is essential. It's research backed by a meta-analysis of many different um studies, and that requires a writing process. Now, sometimes it can go quicker, sometimes it can go more slowly, but students need a writing process. And if we're only looking at product, then that is a really good question. But to teach how to write does so much for the brain, does so much for the person, uh, does so much for the way that they that anyone moves in the world. And if we think of AI as just completely replacing the product, we're missing out on a lot of learning opportunities because the the learning throughout the writing process is more important. And I even suggest to teachers sometimes don't even get to the final product. Like hang up the things that have been well revised and well edited, and the notebook where they came up with ideas and planned out those ideas, and then say, look at all the work we put into our writing on the bulletin board. And I know for sure that writing is the most vulnerable academic act kids take on in schools. Maybe art's the second. Um, and yet there's more leeway in art to bring in the artist. But in many cases, in writing instruction, it's looking for a particular, I don't know, conformity rather than bringing the writer into the writing. And again, if if we're looking at keeping the writer separate from their creation, no matter how academic or uh basically low risk it could be, anywhere in between there, if we're not looking first at the writer, it doesn't, it's really not their work then.

SPEAKER_01:

That's right. And there probably are the probably more rules when it comes to writing than when it comes to art. Art we can break the rules. Writing, as a, you know, with teaching grammar, you kind of have to toe the line in some. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, especially very academic writing, yes. Um, and I think uh as the older kids get, the more they're asked to do this type of academic writing. Um, but I think of writing in two kind of buckets that there's writing as a product, so you know who your audience is, and you are crafting your words grammatically and sentences grammatically for that audience. And then there's writing to think, where there isn't a set of rules and structures, and it really is getting down on the page things that help you remember, uh, things that you want to share, uh, things that you kind of want to work through to clarify and make meaning from. So that's another reason that AI isn't going to do the trick for everything, because the product isn't the only type of writing, but writing to think is essential. Right. And AI can't do that for us.

SPEAKER_01:

That's a good point. So, what skills do you believe will actually define strong writers in our new AI-assisted world? And where should teachers be focusing their time and energy when it comes to written writing instruction now?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, first, I am a big proponent of paper. Handwriting does so much for learning, um, learning to read, learning content, learning how to write well. If AI is creating a final product for us and we haven't learned what good writing looks like and sounds like and can be created, then we don't will not have an eye for being able to see writing that's created by a machine to know whether or not it's the kind of quality that we want it to have. And so I highly recommend, at least at the very start, for grades three and up, using some type of notebook space where students come up with multiple ideas or entry points or perspectives or topics for what they're going to write. It can come from a prompt, but having the time to decide how they're going to answer or write to the prompt, but also what is going to be the most meaningful and resonating kind of topic and plan we can make. And when we have that part as the beginning of the writing process, and it's pencil to paper, there's a lot more authenticity that can come down the road. And I do think there is a place for AI in writing. I just want it to be a sidekick to kids, not for it to be a hack.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Well, there's much, there's a greater difference when I at least I feel when an adult is using something to assist, when it, and then when a child is using something to assist. Because the the adult, we hopefully, or at least when we hope that they know how to actually do stuff. And then a child, on the other hand, doesn't have the same experience or hasn't gone through the same process of learning how to write or the purpose of writing.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

So we're losing, you know, they're losing that what you're talking about there, uh, without having writing instruction or grammar instruction. So where does grammar instruction fit into this new landscape? If technology can correct errors instantly, and we're all familiar with word check and spell or spell check, spell check and word count, and that little bit backwards there, and that transpose. But with you know, tools to correct our errors, what becomes the point of teaching grammar and what is the deeper purpose behind it?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I like to equate grammar to a painter's paintbrush. That we are creating something on the page, and grammar is style, just like a painter's brush strokes and uh techniques are the style that they're choosing. And when we can learn grammar in a way that it becomes a tool for creating meaning, whatever meaning we're trying to get across, then it takes a different role in writing. It's no longer a defined set of rules. Because when you think about it, there are actually um three buckets of grammar. We have spoken grammar, which changes from community to community, from house to house. Um it's and it's varied and ever-changing. And then we have book grammar, where the majority of books that we read, fiction or nonfiction, unless it's something uh very academic, the grammar isn't perfect in there. Authors use grammar to style their writing in the way that they want it to sound. And then there's standard grammar, which are the grammar standards, which are determined by each state. And those are the ones that we need to teach explicitly, but also not in the old-fashioned way that we've been doing. Um there's just so many things that are missing from grammar instruction when the entry points are worksheet completion, identification, and memorization. When we learn something, wherever we're learning it, those are sometimes part of the things that we do when we learn. But if we're in a natural like state of learning, for example, I love to refinish furniture with chalk paints and waxes. And so I study that. And I'm not necessarily engaging in an act of completion, it's an act of creation, and I experiment with different paints and waxes, I look for feedback, I seek experts to hear what they would do. I reflect on what's working. And so in this day and age, this such digital age, we need to have multiple entry points for grammar learning. And it doesn't have to be a long time. I recommend uh 10 minutes, three to five times a week, just in say a study. Uh, so like a study of sentences, for example, um, and do that for six weeks, three to five times a week, 10 minutes at a at a clip, and with those different entry points that I just described. And there will be deeper, more intentional learning about grammar and how to use it for their benefit.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. So, something that you have really gone into is how to make granir grammar uh innovative uh for students in this generation. You have a new book, Not Your Granny's Grammar, that offers a fresh take on what grammar instruction can look like today in this day and age. So, what are some misconceptions that you are hoping to challenge with your book?

SPEAKER_00:

There are many, but I'd first like to start with the set of beliefs that I'm not sure where they came from, but it's a it's first a belief of I taught this to you, and now you must be able to do it with perfection. I really can't think of another subject area that expects a student to fill out a worksheet and then transfer that into their writing, or transfer that immediately into whatever they're doing. There's so much learning that needs to happen over time where we are playfully interacting, getting curious about the subject and working with others and co-creating knowledge, grammar know-how. And so I think one misconception is you did this workbook page, or we talked about nouns at the beginning of the year, and somehow you're not using them, or somehow you can't identify them. That's not realistic in any type of learning, especially in grammar learning, though that's the traditional approach that still exists very, very solidly in education.

SPEAKER_01:

So many teachers feel pressured to follow a rigid writing program even in this changing, rapidly changing landscape for students. What advice do you have for teachers trying to bring more relevance and creativity into literacy structures right now, especially with the TikTokification, if you will, of attention spans with students? What are some ways that we can kind of meet both worlds? The need for grammar instruction and the need to meet what our students are coming to us with with their uh social media induced shortened attention span and uh the relevance there.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think right there is a really cool connection in what you're saying. Not everything needs to be a formal argument piece, let's say. Not everything needs to be a report about this particular topic. I was recently at a convention and within a within a subject area, let's just say social studies, um, what the teacher did was ask them to become content creators and to write and plan for what they wanted to share as a content creator. Now that could be a podcast, that could be a series of TikToks, that could be a series of infographics, whatever it might be, but they had to be the content creator. And they were the ones who were designing the pop-up that would come over here, or the slowdown of this is really important, let me repeat it. Um and in that connection between thinking like, what are the kids looking at? What are they engaging most with, and how can I adapt that into something relevant, helpful, and engaging for my students? There is an intersection there. So it could be, let's say it's a history class and we're learning about um famous women in history. It could be a little gossip TikTok about like, you know, completely factual, um, but also just being like, girl, you should have known that that friend was going to be that way. And then it's like bad friend, you know. So the it's a little more informal than academic language, but it's also teaching flexibility because when students, writers of any age know who their audience is and know what the genre or medium is, there's much more engagement and much more uh desire to create something that is uniquely theirs.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Well, and screens and social media are becoming the native language for for kids of all ages. So how you've mentioned here how they how we can use and we can leverage that, but how do you see that influencing formal writing for better or worse? This um social media infestation. Yes. I can remember specifically when Instagram and Snapchat came on the scene, how that impacted my my students' interests and their uh their uh their writing, hashtags and et al. Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, so well, social media is the thing that in this current day and age, these decades, are the thing that are the social parts that are shifting the way that students engage in learning and the types of content they engage with. This is not the first vast change that has come about. Um, I start off my book with a quote that says all the words world's problems could be solved with grammar, something to that effect. And that was a 16th-century philosopher. So there are lots of uh in every era, there's something that's changing the way that students are engaging with the world, and we can pretend it's not there, which I don't recommend. Um, we can find ways of embracing them, we can realize that grammar is ever evolving, and the words that are and phrases that are happening in uh are being used in younger communities, let's say, um, these are the things that will become something normal, something grammatical. Uh, and I know that's a really hard pill to swallow for many, um, but I tracked a lot of grammar across the centuries, and there's something that's always changing. And I'm sure there was a time where a fountain pen was being used, and they're like, we cannot let the quills go. Or you, you know, there was um pencils that you could sharpen all of a sudden, and there's this change, or you know, just the social movements that happen and the impact that that has on grammar and writing and creating. We may not like to see the the shift happen, but we are not the first to witness it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Yes, very good point, very good point. 16th century. What were they thinking with those quills? Yeah. How would they ever let those go? Yeah. We've gone from quills to uh chat GPT. That's quite the quite the quite the jump. So how can teachers leverage this chat GGP chat GPT, the tool, the AI tools? How can we leverage it as a learning tool without letting it become a shortcut or a crutch that stunts our students' writing development? Is is that possible? And if so, if it is possible, what are the safeguards or approaches do you recommend so that we don't go down that rabbit hole?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. So as students go through the writing process, paper and pen or pencil is a necessity in many parts of the process. And so still relying on that level of technology, which technically pencil and paper is a technology, and then bringing in the say AI tools that will help us maybe give us revision suggestions. And we can compare what we created to what the revision suggestions are. And because we've gone through some creative process in generating ideas and maybe organizing those ideas, we can decide when it actually informs my writing and can make it sound better, or no. I mean, I have Grammarly on my everything, it seems like it's I it's all over my email and my uh Google Docs. And the blue line that goes underneath is showing us that this is something stylistically that we might want to change. But if we don't think so, or we look at the options it gives us and it's not sounding the way we want it to sound, then we don't use it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So and it's like you'll plug in like significant or something, something else that's like very out of not out of my mouth, that's for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Like no. Yes, exactly. And then there are some AI tools that give feedback to students. I mean, one of my favorite in BRISC, which I know is going to be or is found in many other um AI tools, is feedback using a teacher rubric that's been up late uploaded. And Brisk suggests some of the things that would help align to the rubric better. That's I think that's something very useful. I mean, usually we might go to another human for that, um but especially in in different grade levels, that human might not really have the rubric in mind the way that AI would. And so I think there's tools like that that can be very helpful as well. But I don't think that we should be on students should be on screens for the majority of their school day.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

It does a lot of damage simply to be on a screen for so long. And we can certainly use computers and resources that are helpful uh when they're irreplaceable.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

But when they're not irreplaceable, like for example, um, you know, drafting something from my from the thing from how I organized what I was thinking, that cannot be replaced well by an AI tool. It will not be as personal, it will not be as original.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, that's true. Nothing can replace yourself. No or your own experiences or your own style.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

So what is one shift that teachers can make starting tomorrow, if need be, that would help students engage more authentically with writing, even in a if they do have screens, even if they are a one-to-one device, uh school or classroom, what's one thing that they could do tomorrow to help students be more engaged, more authentic with their with their writing instruction?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I think that starting with curiosity is a really beautiful place to start. We can go on to our devices, but whatever it is that we are focusing on that day, let's get curious. What are some things that we wonder about? Here we are writing an informational piece, something that's teaching others before we even go into our document. Perhaps we think about what we wonder about revision and informational text? What tools do we already have on hand that can help us with revision? And having human contact and conversation and pencil to paper before opening a device. Very simple, um, very quick, and also that curiosity can really fuel creativity and engagement.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Patty, this has all been very helpful for helping us see where we can put the tools that we have in our lives in place in our classrooms, as you know, in addition to making sure that we teach grammar, teach writing to students so that they are able to communicate in this world. Where can our listeners go to learn more about you, more about um not your granny's grammar, and any other resources or services that you have?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, my website is the perfect first stop. I have been curating so much on this website for a few years now. Um, and it really shares the sorts of things that I have done and can do. Um, and it really has a nice little section on not your granny's grammar and what it includes. Uh, I also have a free download on how to use grammar to master any content, which has not been the case in the past, at least for me, that it was always master the content and then express it grammatically correctly. It's the opposite with this tool. It's a let's use grammar to master content.

SPEAKER_01:

That is interesting.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a handy and really fun and highly engaging experience.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. So our listeners can go to pattymagegee.org and learn more about your resources and how to integrate grammar into any content area. Patty, thank you so much for coming on today.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you, Patty, for that insightful interview about grammar and AI. If you would like to learn more about Patty and her resources, you can go to www.pattymage.org. And I will also place the link below in the show notes to Not Your Granny's Grammar if you would like to learn more about her new book and her other publications. Thank you for joining us on the next chapter for teachers. We'll see you here next time. That's all for this episode of the Next Chapter for Teachers podcast. If you like what you heard, be sure to rate, subscribe, and leave a review. Join us next time when we turn the page to the future of the profession. Until then, remember to be different, but more importantly, be the difference. And I'll see you in the next chapter.